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About Bill from the UK: I love Mariah more than you do. London Daydream Tour Attendee.

The evolution of Mariah Carey (110,139) by Bill from the UK There was a brief window of time, from the debut through to Unplugged, when Mariah was Mariah. This era is what I would deem the authentic Mariah. It was before she became heavily manicured and manufactured, and before her career was as calculated for success as during Music Box and Daydream. It was before she was married where, in Mariah's words, she married him hoping he would "lighten up" but it made him more insecure and controlling than he was beforehand. It was also before the diva persona took up residence and when she was a sincere and capable singer who said to Lorraine Kelly in 1990 "I would never lip sync", right after the Milli Vanilli scandal. Now we're lucky if we get a line sung live. Of course nobody here wants her to be unhappy, even the OGs. But there was a spark she had in the beginning that dimmed over time. And really, can we honestly say she has been happy post-Tommy? People love to say post-1997 she was free and independent and happy, but that has never been the case. She's had a string of heartbreaks, career setbacks, and an image/creativity crisis in the decades that followed. She seemed momentarily happy and content with Nick and the arrival of the babies, but then that went south pretty quickly. So, all we can do is love her. That can be supporting everything she does, or taking the hard decision to call out things that she perhaps shouldn't be doing. When Mariah leaves us (I pray not for a long, long, long time), her career should be remembered for the incredible string of achievements she trail-blazed, the wonderful songs that captured a generation, a Christmas song that will endure forevermore, and being one of the greatest voices we have ever heard. Not as this caricature diva worried about lighting and splashes, being celebrated as the "Queen of shade" (that's not a good thing), wearing lingerie and lip synching to engineered vocals that cannot be replicated live. But who am I? (Monday 28 July 2025; 18:01) this is a reply to message 110,131

The evolution of Mariah Carey (110,131) by Matthew from USA Every time someone on here proclaims themselves an OG, I have to take a deep breath and proceed with caution. Mariah has stated multiple times how controlled and unhappy she was in the first several years of her career. She threw herself into her work and convinced herself this was the price she had to pay for success. Other friends like Brat even wondered "How do you live like this?" It's a little weird to see all the OG's being nostalgic for this era. The OG's say she was a proper lady in this era - classy, dignified, pristine, graceful, and her true authentic self. They mourn her current state, which one is left to assume is the opposite of all those adjectives. I'm not here to invalidate anyone's opinion, but I can provide another perspective that Terna expressed - we both happen to be black. In our culture Mariah is viewed as bougie and fancy. Initially we were like "Who is this white girl singing down like that? Okay Mariah, Get down with your bad self. Do your thing, girl." I don't think one culture's perspective is more important than another's, but I think we should remember to try and view the whole. I do think Mariah would be disheartened that who she is now is causing so much sadness and heartache to the OG's. But I don't think she would go back (and no shade, but I heard the Walter song and I agree with her). I think she would sadly hand y'all the Art of Letting Go record. Go to Mimi on your contacts. Press delete. End your suffering. If it's any consolation, the OG's can always treasure the memory of Tommy controlled Mariah, when she was being her true authentic self. (Monday 28 July 2025; 13:59)

The evolution of Mariah Carey (110,129) by Bill from the UK Well put Jamie, thank you. Loving your posts lately. It's always difficult when an OG goes up against a Yaas Queen because we seem to be diametrically opposed. Lucky for us though the board allows all opinions to be voiced. Whether you're an OG, Yaas Queen, or a sweet innocent lamb that sits somewhere in between. We love everyone. But some we love more than others. (Monday 28 July 2025; 12:53) this is a reply to message 110,126

The evolution of Mariah Carey (110,126) by Jamie from UK Aww this is a message board where people can voice their opinions. There was no negativity from any of my posts, we're not complaining as we are still supporting her by buying her music, as I said I like both TD and SS. I simply stating she is changed and how I personally would have liked her career to play out for the better, it doesn't mean I won't support her whatever she does or call her out for something I don't like. That is a true fan to me... being honest. You're the one calling people "silly fans" and "poison" and having a word censored. That isn't a nice trait. You're the one that should be ashamed of yourself, not us. (Monday 28 July 2025; 11:03)

The evolution of Mariah Carey (110,096) by Bill from the UK Jamie thank you for putting so eloquently my exact thoughts. I think only the OG fans can relate to what you say, because we were there living those great moments live at the time. I don't think people get just how special she was and how she drew so many people to her by being an incredible talent, humble, and her good fortune of being naturally photogenic. Talk about hitting a jackpot. But then to see it descend year by year is so heartbreaking. Not just the voice, but the grace, the elegance, the class, the poise... sigh. Right now you're gone, you just vanished away. But I'll never leave you behind. No, I'll never forget you. (Saturday 26 July 2025; 17:33) this is a reply to message 110,075

The evolution of Mariah Carey (110,075) by Jamie from UK Whilst I love that Mariah is still putting out music I can't help but wonder what went wrong for Mariah. I've just heard Without You on an Instagram post which to me is the pinnacle of Mariah in 1993, you couldn't get much better than that. To now her latest single Sugar Sweet (which I don't mind) but let's be honest she can barely sing this tune and it isn't very taxing on the voice as a were her earlier hits. When I hear old school Mariah I can't help but feel sad at where we are now. A complete transformation of personality and a huge degrading of vocals. What happened? Was it self inflicted or is it just natural wear and tear of a once untouchable voice. I would love to rewind to 1993 when her career took off internationally and just remind her to stay grounded and focus on what's important. I've said this multiple times but I just don't get how we went from Mariah to MC it's such a contrast of personalities. Her early cross over stuff was cool but as I've said countless times she took it too far and I think the partying etc took a toll on her vocals and ate away at her wholesomeness. She might say and pretend that she's always been hood but I remember those early days and there was no pretence, just a natural girl living her best life. Yes we all change but we're still recognisable, I think Mariah took it too far and now she doesn't even recognise herself. Her appearance last night on Jimmy Kimmel is a far cry from who she once was, I would love to sit 1993 Mariah down and show her 2025 Mariah. I don't even think she would relate to that. I'm speaking from the heart and probably don't understand the ins and outs of the celebrity lifestyle and how it affects you both physically and mentally. But part of me wants to understand what went wrong and what happened to Mariah and why she's so affected now and her voice has taken such a turn. It's great she's still giving us music but vocally and especially personality she's a far cry from what she was. I don't even think Mariah knows herself anymore she's that affected. I reminisce of her dancing on the beach with "to be around you" playing out to her now barely able to focus or speak and can't but help to want to say to her it's ok to be Mariah again. (Saturday 26 July 2025; 01:14)

The evolution of Mariah Carey (110,095) by Bill from the UK Great post Eddie. (Saturday 26 July 2025; 17:30) this is a reply to message 110,079

The evolution of Mariah Carey (110,079) by Edward from USA Jamie, I've wondered the same thing. Mariah used to be so grounded, with this effortless innocence. She was sexy without even trying, and that voice was just next level. That combo is what made her so special. It's sad, but at least we have her amazing back catalog to fall back on. I'm really hoping "Here For It All" has at least one huge power ballad. I kind of feel like this might be her last album. With how the voice has been and how long she takes between projects, I'm not sure what she'll sound like in another five years. Hopefully she goes out with a bang, a critically acclaimed album and maybe a couple of Grammys to top it off. (Saturday 26 July 2025; 02:40)

Jimmy Kimmel (110,065) by Bill from the UK Had to give up on the interview halfway through. Host and Mariah were both boring. (Friday 25 July 2025; 20:19) this is a reply to message 110,051

Jimmy Kimmel (110,051) by Lighty from China Not familiar with the interviewer lady but she kinda gave me a Rosie vibe, but a discount version of Rosie if you know what I mean. Mariah seems to be much more lively and responsive than in her other recent interviews, which is a good thing. Dress is not bad but I think they could've done better with the whole styling but hey, it is what it is. (Friday 25 July 2025; 16:06)

Sugar Sweet (110,028) by Bill from the UK Well I doubt it will be the 20th number one. Astonishing that in 7 years she couldn't come up with anything even remotely different to what she's put in the last 20 years. Thumbs down. The only thing keeping me "here for it all" is the Clarke Sisters number and seeing what McCartney song she covered. (Friday 25 July 2025; 08:26)

Webmaster request (110,008) by Bill from the UK As the Reprimandee I feel it's my duty to wade in at this point and, once again, ask that you chill. Easy to remember. Rhymes with Bill. (Thursday 24 July 2025; 17:07) this is a reply to message 109,993

Webmaster request (109,993) by Lambi from USA Actually no. I've been rather chill. I literally ride the "reprimand" joke at this point. I mean my album title was, Reprimanded: The Art Of Hibernation. But it is a drum that a couple people here keeps beating, I don't know why. There was really no need for a subtle diss. But I hope this ends it. Trying to enjoy the roll out of Here For It All. (Thursday 24 July 2025; 11:31)

Special guests (109,824) by Bill from the UK Just on point 1, do we? Were the Super Festive version of AIWFCIY and the cursed Why You Mad actually any good? Bieber is so 2010. (Saturday 19 July 2025; 15:45) this is a reply to message 109,823

Special guests (109,823) by Bobby A from United States Shezz, I have 10 notebook pages of research, analysis, and X posts right now. Lol. I don't think the 2nd single will have any rappers as special guests. That is not the trend right now for a pop R&B hybrid song. My top 5 special guests are: 1. Justin Bieber - We need another MC and Justin collaboration. 2. Sza - Every song she releases and is a guest on does extremely well on the Hot 100. 3. Leon Thomas - His song Mutt is a hit on the Urban and Urban AC charts right now. 4. Summer Walker - Her fan base is crazy and her vocals add something great to any song. 5. Usher - He would definitely give MC those female listeners who love some Usher. Plus, his clear and rich vocals make your head bob to his songs. (Saturday 19 July 2025; 12:23)

Analysis of the MC16 rollout (109,819) by Bill from the UK I do wonder if MC16 will get shelved now as T-Dang made zero impact on the charts despite the big budget video and, for Mariah at least, some light promotion. If she is genuinely aiming for another number one, sticking to the same formula you've been peddling since 1997 isn't going to cut it. I do genuinely think her "Believe" moment has the potential to happen, but as with Cher, it needs to be something totally left field and unexpected of her. But no, let's instead churn out another formulaic, tired, boring, sample-heavy 3 minute R&B ditty with childish lyrics and throw Busta on the remix. That should do it. Oh wait. It didn't. (Saturday 19 July 2025; 09:00) this is a reply to message 109,812

Analysis of the MC16 rollout (109,812) by Bobby A from United States No mediation from me today. Lol. Since the second single didn't drop today, it will probably drop next Friday. So with my analysis of singles needing at least six weeks to hit that sweet chart position on the charts, MC16 will probably not drop until September. Maybe this is best for maximum album sales because August is to jammed pack with major artists releases. I hope the Harv track has multiple features like Peaches to become that Hot 100 top 10 hit MC needs for MC16 to be successful. A Justin Beiber and Sza feature would help MC on both sides on the pop and R&B charts. I am keeping my fingers crossed those two are on the track. MC needs to follow the Peaches formula. (Friday 18 July 2025; 18:13)

The problem with Brad and hating ass hoes (109,793) by Bill from the UK Type: Unhinged. (Thursday 17 July 2025; 17:57) this is a reply to message 109,788

The problem with Brad and hating ass hoes (109,788) by Victoria from USA How old is Brad? I'm fifty and have been a fan since the beginning. Apparently, myself and MC are supposed to dye our hair gray and start baking cookies. I can't stand a man telling us, when and why we're supposed to become some other person. I can appreciate "hating ass hoes" because of this messageboard. The majority of you come here to bash the woman, case in point "new album title" responses. It's mostly men [censored]. This messageboard has over a dozen [censored], that should love that lyric. (Thursday 17 July 2025; 15:09)

This next chapter is about owning my narrative and creating freely on my own terms (109,773) by Bill from the UK Mariah's been saying that same tired old sentence with every album she's put out since Butterfly. Okay Tommy directed your first five albums and made you sing pop orientated ballads. We get it. You've made 10 albums since. What would be a good change of pace is her saying "I've collaborated with [name of hot new producer] and have handed the reigns over to them, putting my complete trust in their vision." Then I'd be interested in the output. Something tells me we're getting another album of same RnB with samples, a few rap features, and an introspective ballad thrown in somewhere. Prove me wrong Mariah. (Wednesday 16 July 2025; 22:37) this is a reply to message 109,765

This next chapter is about owning my narrative and creating freely on my own terms (109,765) by T from USA By the way, what does Mariah mean when she says this new project lets her create music freely on her own terms? I do believe this will be the most unmanaged album of her career (it took 7 years to even get to this stage). But I thought she created Butterfly, Rainbow, Glitter, Charmbracelet and TEOM pretty much freely without that much oversight or am I missing something? Even MIAMTEC was probably very unmonitored. It's like she always goes back to the first three album narrative of being controlled every time she releases something new, unless those above albums (the later years) still had heavy input by their respective labels? I am low key excited to hear what a completely free and unsupervised (on her own terms) body of work will sound like. But again, then what is LA Reid's role who is exec producing it? (Wednesday 16 July 2025; 04:36)

Vision of Love (109,748) by Bill from the UK It was probably warranted to be fair. And lol as everyone should know by now I am never wrong. (Tuesday 15 July 2025; 07:27) this is a reply to message 109,735

Vision of Love (109,735) by Edward from USA Are you reprimanding Bill? Just because he was like totally wrong. Please don't do it again. (Monday 14 July 2025; 19:42)

Vision of Love (109,747) by Bill from the UK Not the Tommy tape. Those song titles were the tracks Mariah and Ben composed together for version 0.1 of the debut. As I said demos are made for every album of every song before it goes into proper production, and that screenshot of the tape with some song titles scribbled on it I’m not convinced is legitimate. (Tuesday 15 July 2025; 07:22) this is a reply to message 109,741

Vision of Love (109,741) by John from USA VOL was definitely part of the demo tape. (Tuesday 15 July 2025; 00:10)

Vision of Love (109,739) by Bill from the UK So according to the official biography the demo tape (that Tommy snatched and played in his car at the party) had four songs on it. Alone In Love, All In Your Mind, Someday, and Do You Ever Wonder which remains unreleased to this day. After signing to CBS and working on the album, the pair wrote Vision of Love and a number of other songs that formed the demo for the debut album. With any album, a number of tracks will be recorded in a demo format for the record company to vet, approve, reject, suggest amendments etc. Once the songs from the demo sessions are decided, they will then be taken forward to be worked on for the album and go through mixing, production and mastering to create the final version. From all I know, Vision of Love was never on the original fateful demo tape presented to Tommy, but came immediately after when the ink was still drying on the contract. (Monday 14 July 2025; 23:12) this is a reply to message 109,732

Vision of Love (109,732) by Webmaster Eric from the Netherlands Are you sure? According to several sources, Vision of Love was part of the original demo tape. (Monday 14 July 2025; 16:31)

Unpopular opinions (109,731) by Bill from the UK Vision of Love was written after she signed to CBS in celebration of that momentous event. It was a thank you to the good Lord above for getting her to that place. So it didn't exist at the point Clive was sniffing around. (Monday 14 July 2025; 16:24) this is a reply to message 109,724

Unpopular opinions (109,724) by TJ from Norway I thought it was VOL they wanted for Whitney. (Monday 14 July 2025; 08:08)

Unpopular opinions (109,718) by Bill from the UK You're right there was a bidding war to sign her between Warners and, as it was back then, CBS records. When the "demo tape incident" happened at the party Brenda K Starr took her to, MC was already in negotiations with WB. I've no idea what numbers each party threw in, but all Mariah ever said about it was that it was CBS allowing her to write her own songs that sealed it for her. I think they could have even offered less money and she still would have gone with them on that element alone. Clive Davis actually tried to buy the song Someday for Whitney, it was then that Mariah realised she could indeed write a good pop song and rather than selling it (as tempting as it was for a young girl "without a penny to her name") she retained it for herself and it gave her even more determination to become an artist in her own right. (Sunday 13 July 2025; 18:33) this is a reply to message 109,706

Unpopular opinions (109,706) by Lambi from USA I wasn't aware of that, what a shame. The fact that Madonna, also signed to WB, was allowed to co-write while Mariah wasn't initially given that same allowance is absurd, almost blasphemous. I recall reading or hearing that Mariah's signing came down to a bidding war: Warner reportedly offered around $100K, and Sony countered with $300K, ultimately securing the deal. My numbers might be a little inaccurate, but it was something in that ballpark. (Sunday 13 July 2025; 03:53)

Always Be My Baby (109,699) by Bill from the UK I was listening to Heart 90s today whilst driving home with the hood down and the hot sun beaming down on my shoulders. The DJ announced "a great song from Mariah Carey after the break" and inwardly rolled my eyes at the thought of Hero coming on the radio. Imagine my surprise when the strumming guitar of Always Be My Baby came on instead. Instantly I was transported back to 1996 when that song last received radio play here in the UK. I don't know what exactly the radio does to make a song sound so much brighter and better, but it sounded so good. I remember loving the cover of the CD single and the remixes too. What did strike me though was that the lyrics have a new meaning now. Mariah and I were as one for a moment in time. I genuinely did think she'd always be mine. Then she wanted to free, I let her fly, and now she's dripped in Balenci with some hatin' ass hoes. But such is life. She'll always be a part of me. (Saturday 12 July 2025; 17:54)

Unpopular opinions (109,698) by Bill from the UK The reason Mariah didn't sign with Warners was because they would not let her write her own material. So she would have been another Whitney or Celine, with songs provided and selected for her, and she merely interpret them as a singer. (Saturday 12 July 2025; 17:46) this is a reply to message 109,693

Unpopular opinions (109,693) by Lambi from USA My other what if is, "what if Mariah didn't end up with Tommy?" like what if Warner Brothers ended up winning the bid and signing Mariah? I wonder how much this would have changed the trajectory of her whole entire career. (Saturday 12 July 2025; 14:13)

Unpopular opinions (109,694) by Bill from the UK The first point is interesting. The rumour once was that the real Mariah was happily married to Tommy, but died in 1996. The "new Mariah" came to take her place, but the separation and divorce was fabricated to present the new image and sound to detract from the fact the new Mariah's vocals were not up to the OG Mariah's. All the songs that were sung well (mainly ballads on Butterfly) were actually half finished left over songs the original Mariah had recorded but not yet released. Since then the voice has been AI and Mariah's been replaced every so often. (Saturday 12 July 2025; 14:15) this is a reply to message 109,681

Unpopular opinions (109,681) by Brad from USA - Mariah is not one person, but actually several persons playing the role of Mariah. Therefore, accounting for the extreme variations in appearance, personality and voice quality over the years and during short periods of time. - She is actually not a diva at all. But a pretty ordinary old soul at heart, just making up the diva persona to try to be interesting because at her heart she's a grounded, traditional, old school, values-driven, every day Long Island girl. - At the time, Tommy and Walter were the best darn things that she could ever imagine would (or that did) happen to her life and career. At the time. - The hurt that Nick Cannon has caused her with his 12 children and all the brief "interlude" relationships Mariah has had, hurt her far, far more than Tommy really ever did. - It would not have been such a bad life to stay at "Sing, Sing" and travel down that path. Not the life she wanted for herself, admittedly, but not a bad life in and of itself. - She has a great deal of regret for how things were left with her sister and even her mom and she knows in her heart that will never be resolved in this lifetime. An authentic sorrow she will harbor for the rest of her time. - She isn't sure what MC 16 will really be. Some are saying its great, some not so much. She's happy to have public interest in her music other than just at Christmas time and doesn't really know why that interest ever went away. She doesn't have many expectations of it and will truly be fascinated to see if it can even do anything commercially at all. She thought she said good-bye with "Portrait" but maybe she will be saying good-bye with how she really thinks of things now, with "Going up Yonder". - Anderson is nothing but a moment. She knows she will always be OHOHO. (Thursday 10 July 2025; 23:43)

Unpopular opinions (109,674) by Bill from the UK 1. The Butterfly and Emancipation albums are good, but not great. 2. I Don't should have been on Caution. 3. The Art of Letting Go was the better album title. 4. All I Want for Christmas Is You is lyrically, musically, and compositionally the best thing she has ever done, and the best thing she will ever do. It will never be topped. 5. She needs to stop trying to chart. Those days are gone for her. 6. She looked better and came across better when under Tommy's guidance and management. (Thursday 10 July 2025; 18:14) this is a reply to message 109,657

Unpopular opinions (109,657) by Haiji from United States Regarding only songs or albums, what are some unpopular opinions you all got? "Hero" still hasn't grown on me yet. "Thank God I Found You" was not #1 worthy and based on how many song I listen to from each album, Caution is my least favorite. (Wednesday 9 July 2025; 16:34)

Album titles (109,649) by Bill from the UK Reprimand: Warranted Memoirs of an Imperfect Elusive Charmbracelet-wearing Emancipated Chanteuse Squared Merry Christmas T(h)ree (the third and final attempt to make Oh Santa happen) You Can't Spell Mariah without A and I - The Return of the Genetically Engineered Voice Glitter 2: Sylk's Revenge (Monday 7 July 2025; 21:55)

Heavy songs (109,617) by Bill from the UK Oh is Mariah a beauty school drop out? She's never mentioned it. (Saturday 5 July 2025; 01:20) this is a reply to message 109,602

Heavy songs (109,602) by Randy from USA Jaker20, I think Portrait on Caution is heavy so she'll do at least one. Languishing from Memoirs is heavy. Most of yall hate it but Memoirs to me is the closest follow up to Butterfly. I remember Mariah saying in the promos for Glitter, I'll never abandon my ballads they are a part of me. We will get something heavy on the new album. Any word on an album title yet? Dangerous? No MJ did that. Overhead Lighting? Anniversaries? Hey, it's one word. Beauty School Drop Out? The Reinterpretation of Mimi? How about, The Mimi Theorem, a2 + b2 = c2? Maybe, Mariah Nunez? Me. I'm Still Mariah. The Songbird Supreme. Ok ok I'll stop, (Friday 4 July 2025; 14:15)

One Heart, One Voice (109,579) by Bill from the UK Haha, honestly Stacey all I could do was laugh out loud. A reprimand was warranted indeed. I might add that to my bio on this site: Reprimanded in July 2025 by Lambi (warranted). (Thursday 3 July 2025; 08:31) this is a reply to message 109,575

One Heart, One Voice (109,575) by Stacey from USA A reprimand was warranted, lol. That's it Bill, you are in your room the rest of the night. No TV. (Thursday 3 July 2025; 02:26)

One Heart, One Voice (109,571) by Bill from the UK Lol. (Wednesday 2 July 2025; 19:33) this is a reply to message 109,565

One Heart, One Voice (109,565) by Lambi from USA Appreciate the mediating spirit Bobby A. You are truly a godsend. Keep it up. Everyone's allowed to have opinions of course but everyone is also responsible for their opinions. The lesson here is you can't just say ridiculous things and expect not to be called out on it. It's good to be the adult in the room to snap toddlers back to reality. Therefore members aren't just spewing disrespectful unhinged remarks like, "Her voice is so shot us board members probably sing Hero better than her now." Words have meaning and a reprimand was warranted. (Wednesday 2 July 2025; 05:44)

One Heart, One Voice (109,563) by Bill from the UK As I said before, chill out for a change. You'll notice you've made a bit of a fool of yourself as I didn't say I could, although I can sing "the way, hey" from Hero without needing backing tracks, backing singers, auto cues, lip syncing, lighting, and an army of men to navigate me across the stage. I'd direct you to this really good platform called YouTube. From there, type in the search box "Mariah Carey cover/karaoke" or words to that effect. You'll be presented with an almost inexhaustible list of unprofessional singers, amateurs, and hobbyists who can carry the tune of Hero just as well as Mariah did back in 1993. Mariah *was* one of the greatest vocalists of a generation, but sadly isn't any longer. How or why that happened will only ever be speculation because she herself will not come clean about what happened to her voice, and continues this masquerade of being this phenomenally good singer when she simply isn't any more. If you genuinely can't see that, then you are just another delusional yass queen who has no place in the fandom, as you're part of the problem as much as she is, for continuing on the facade. (Tuesday 1 July 2025; 20:49) this is a reply to message 109,552

One Heart, One Voice (109,552) by Lambi from USA That is funny. I pressed you on this before but you ran away and hibernated. Let me recap what you said, verbatim: "Mariah's voice being damaged beyond repair to the point that a number of us unprofessionals on this board can probably sing 'Hero' better than she can and with no lipping." "A number of us" so you've appointed yourself a part of some imaginary choir of amateurs who can outsing one of the most technically revered vocalists in music history. Tremendously bold claim. Since you said this your chest, you at least must be a willing representative of the group to back it up, right? So let's just hear it. Debunk my insinuation that you're out of touch. If you're confident enough to dismiss quite literally the greatest vocalist of all time, a quick vocal clip should be a walk in the park. Or are you just going to go on hibernation again? (Tuesday 1 July 2025; 06:23)

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